501 Tiger Verluste/losses in Afrika

Eine Liste der Verluste an Tigern im Tunesienfeldzug soll helfen die verbliebenen Panzer zu identifizieren. Möglichst genau sollten wir versuchen die Verluste zu datieren.

Der 1. Tiger der 1./501 geht am 18.01.43 bei "Djebel Mansour" verloren. Der Tiger fährt auf mehrere Minen und muss aufgegeben werden. Er wird dann ausgeschlachtet.

Meiner Meinung nach kann es nur dieser Tiger 122 gewesen sein.

Lost by mines on 18.01.43 Djebel Mansour/ Tiger 122




Killed by 6pdr.Pak on 20.01.43 near Robaa/Tiger 231






Am 22.01.43 ging ein weiterer Tiger verloren. Es soll der des Führers(Leutnant Vermehren) des 2.Zuges der 1.Kompanie gewesen sein. Der Tiger des Zugführes des 2.Zuges war Tiger 121.
Der Tiger 121 wurde jedoch auch nach diesem Datum noch intakt fotografiert. Am 8.2.43 beim Unternehmen "Frühlingswind" war 121 noch in gutem Zustand fotografiert.

Dann gibt es noch ein weiteres Foto späteren Datums das ihn mit deutlich mehr Beschädigungen zeigt.

Ich weiß nicht wann 121 verloren ging, aber er könnte bei Beja noch dabei gewesen sein. Not 121 was lost on that day but wich else?

Am 31.01.43 (Unternehmen "Eilbote II")sollen weitere Tiger der 2.Kompanie verloren gegangen sein. Schneider spricht vom Angriff des 2.Zuges der 2.Kompanie und nennt einen Verlust. Restayn schreibt von zwei Verlusten an Tigern dort. Evtl. Tiger 221 ging hier verloren?
Or Tiger 241 maybe here?







Am 28.02.43 gehen mindestens 7 Tiger verloren


Lost around 28.02.43 near" Beja"/Tiger 142




Lost around 28.02.43 near "Beja"/Tiger 111




Lost around 28.02.43 near "Beja"/Tiger 823 and 833





This list need more to complete.

Tiger 731:

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

I always figured 122 lasted longer because its ancilliary damage(bent fenders, headlights, etc.) was similar to other tanks through middle February.

Also believe that another Tiger was destroyed with 231 that day. I no longer have the photos but there are pictures with the same two guys who blew up 231 next to another Tiger carcass, the position of the crouching tiger on the glacis differentiates the 2 tanks. One account also listed 8 PZIIIs destroyed with those 2 Tigers that day.

I forget the name of the book but it made mention of 4 tigers being knocked out at El Guettar.

Tiger 121 is listed as being knocked out in Quesseltia around 22 January with a PZIII from Stab. In same area the day before another PZIII from 2kp was knocked out. This is in conflict with photopgraphic record!

__________________
Regards,

James

Zitat:

Original von James Burns Also believe that another Tiger was destroyed with 231 that day. I no longer have the photos but there are pictures with the same two guys who blew up 231 next to another Tiger carcass, the position of the crouching tiger on the glacis differentiates the 2 tanks. One account also listed 8 PZIIIs destroyed with those 2 Tigers that day.

I don´t know of any photo wich shows a second Tiger with the british engineers.

Just one shot with the Panzer III 242 in the background.....

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

Zitat:

Original von Hartmut von Holdt Zitat: Original von James Burns Also believe that another Tiger was destroyed with 231 that day. I no longer have the photos but there are pictures with the same two guys who blew up 231 next to another Tiger carcass, the position of the crouching tiger on the glacis differentiates the 2 tanks. One account also listed 8 PZIIIs destroyed with those 2 Tigers that day. I don´t know of any photo wich shows a second Tiger with the british engineers. Just one shot with the Panzer III 242 in the background..... http://www.tiif.de/bilder/501231vergleich1.jpg http://www.tiif.de/bilder/501231vergleich2.jpg

According to Jentz, the second Tiger behind 231 was recovered by the Germans. Richard Cox in Tiger Without a Home reports the same.

Is this the picture James is referring to perhaps?

Dieser Beitrag wurde schon 2 mal editiert, zum letzten mal von John Winwood am 02.01.2010 07:37.

that is the one. what do you think?

__________________
Regards,

James

Another photo of 231

This is another photo of tiger 231 after being demolished. The track and hull blown in the weird postion is by the british testing hawkins grenades and mines on the tracks on the side with the soldiers standing.
More views in tiger tanks a british view.
Allen

Zitat:

Original von James Burns that is the one. what do you think?

All known (at least to me) pics of 231 demolition are in the gallery. There is no second Tiger on any pic and it shows all the same vehicle.

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

What about the position of the crouching tiger in that photos and those of 231?

I originally thought they were in obvious different position but I had many more photographs then. Now, I'm not so sure.

__________________
Regards,

James

Info on pics above

Both Photos are from Panzer Armee Afrika : Tripoli to Tunis by Peter Gudgin Arms and Armor press 1988. I have misplaced my notes from which pages they are on . Sorry for posting the 504 Tiger under tow on the 501 wrecks and losses as soon as I get time I will post it in the 504 section.
Allen

Some new info

Hello, I'm a new member.

Here is some new informations I found in NARA. This is based mostly on the two combat reports of Pz.Abt.501 from January 1943. Both of them are supplemented by very interesting and detailed technical reports. Together with some notes from the 5. Panzer-Armee war diary, they should answer many questions.



The first document is covering the period 18 - 24 January (Unternehmen Eilbote). According to the combat report, there were 9 Tigers and 14 Pz.III operational on 15 January, and they belonged to the Stab and the 1. company. The technical report adds that all the Tigers belonged to the 1. company.
The story told by the combat report goes as follows. For a first couple of days, a number of tanks fell out of action for various reasons (mines, artillery hits, bogging down, technical breakdowns) but none was seriously damaged. Things went worse on 23 January. In addition to several supporting weapons, 2 Pz.III has been knocked out (1 of them was totally lost), and 1 Tiger was rendered immobile by enemy fire. This Tiger caught fire while withdrawing from the enemy, but it could have been evacuated to the own lines.
According to the technical report, the battalion had its first total loss on the last day of action (it should mean 23 January). One of the Tigers received a hit in the right side of the hull, through the last road wheel. The shell didn't penetrate, but it pushed (orig. eindrueckte) the side armor to the inside, what caused a leak from the nearby fuel tank. The Tiger was successfully towed out from the battlefield, but then, the fuel vapours have exploded and the tank burned out despite every effort to save it.
During the night, the machine was evacuated from the enemy view using 2 heavy tractors. All the usable parts of the running gear, as well as the entire turret together with the gun were dismounted for further use as a spare parts. The hull has been completely devastated to prevent it from falling into enemy hands intact.
During operation, 3 Pz.III were put out of action. All of them could have been quickly repaired and returned to service (obviously there's a discrepancy between both parts of the same report).
When the document has been written (27 January), 2 Tigers from the 2. company were still in action in the other sector.

As a supplement, here's a few interesting notes from 5.Pz.A. war diary:
20 January, 10:27 - Restkdo. Pz.Abt.501 will provide 2 Tigers with an escort for 10.Pz.Div.
23 January, 10.05 - Kampfgruppe Weber reports, that strong enemy attacks were repulsed yesterday at evening. There were serious own losses, Flak detachment and 8 Pz.III were put out of action (orig. ausgefallen; there is no unit identification and no more details given).
24 January, 9.15 - Gruppe Weber informed, that 1 Tiger caught fire during march because of damage to the engine. It burned out completely and had to be blown up.


Then, there is a second report, dealing with Eilbote II.
There were 11 Tigers operational for that action. Six of them belonged to the Gruppe Pommee, advancing on the right along the road to Robaa, and 5 others were to attack south under Major Luder.
The attached technical report offers few more details. Of the 5 Tigers from Gruppe Luder, 2 belonged to the Stab and 3 others were from 1. company. This company still had most of their tanks in repair and was in dire need of the spare parts. Gruppe Luder didn't suffer any damage due to enemy fire during action, and the only technical problem they had was an exchange of a single road wheel.
Actually, 2. company still had 9 Tigers before the Eilbote II. However, they arrived only recently and encountered the same defects that plagued earlier the rest of the unit. They usually kept 5-6 Tigers ready for action until combat losses occurred. They never had more than 6 Tigers operational at the same time.
The 2. company encountered heavy resistance on the road to Robaa, and the leading tanks (2 Tigers and 4 Pz.III) has been knocked out, with some of them burning. Of the two Tigers, one was set on fire.
This tank had a Fgst. Nr. 250011. After being hit, it immediately ignited and was burning brightly for three and a half hours. There was strong development of both fire and smoke, as well as several explosions of ammunition. Later, the tank has been blown up during the night by 50 kg explosive charge.
The second Tiger has been towed out from the battlefield using Pz.III. It received a total of 24 hits (according to the report). Even though 5 of them penetrated, there was no significant damage to the internal equipment, and the tank was repairable.
There are pictures attached to the report showing the location of hits on this Tiger:

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac213/vaerlagh/a-1.jpg
http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac213/vaerlagh/b.jpg

5.Pz.A. war diary isn't very helpful this time, there is only a single note:
31 January, 11.20 - Gruppe Weber encountered heavy enemy resistance, 2 Tigers and 3 Pz.III completely lost by enemy effect.



Here's some conclusions we can draw from these reports:
1. Only one Tiger was lost during Unternehmen Eilbote, probably on 23 January at evening. It belonged to the 1. company.
2. One more Tiger (from the 2. company) was lost in Eilbote II, early on 31 January.
3. Pz.Abt.501 still had 18 out of 20 Tigers remaining after these actions.
4. This in turn explains why there were exactly 2 Tigers issued as replacements for Pz.Abt.501 in February 1943 (though both didn't get beyond Sicily).
5. It appears, that much of the info we had about Tiger 231 was badly wrong. It looks like it was actually lost on 31 January. The location (Robaa road) is correct and the story told by photos agrees with the second report.
6. With the sketches posted above, it should be easy to find out which Tiger was damaged on 31 January. However, this particular pattern of hits doesn't appear on Tigers 813, 823 and 833.Does someone have more photos of 2./8. company Tigers?
7. Also it should be noted that the turret of the first lost Tiger have actually survived, and from then on served as a spare part.

Files deleted, if somebody needs them, please contact me.

Hope that helps
Jerry

Dieser Beitrag wurde schon 2 mal editiert, zum letzten mal von Jerry Mumot am 25.02.2010 02:49.

RE: Some new info

Hello Jerry,

thank you for this effort!

I read both reports(second is a technical report) and find an interesting part in the second report.

Zitat:

Original von Jerry Mumot During the night, the machine was evacuated from the enemy view using 2 heavy tractors. All the usable parts of the running gear, as well as the entire turret together with the gun were dismounted for further use as a spare parts.

This was the first loss but the turret was dismounted for further use.


The next loss was on Robaa road and the second Tiger damaged there was pulled back from the firing line(HKL).

Zitat:

The second Tiger has been towed out from the battlefield using Pz.III. It received a total of 24 hits (according to the report). Even though 5 of them penetrated, there was no significant damage to the internal equipment, and the tank was repairable. There are pictures attached to the report showing the location of hits on this Tiger:

In the report it says in german: Der 2.Tiger konnte durch Turmwechsel und Verschweißung der Durchschüsse wieder instandgesetzt werden.

"Turmwechsel" means the Tiger was repaired with another turret.

The only other turret on hand at this time was of course the turret of the 1.Kompanie loss. That would mean if the second Tiger on the Robaa road was indead a 2.Kompanie Tiger, then he had a turret from a Tiger of the 1.Kompanie from that time on.

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

Small correction

Hi Hartmut

The first report I posted has a line missing from the first page of technical report, on the bottom edge. This line reads:

"Dadurch wurde der knapp an der Wand anliegende untere Kraftstoffbehaelter leck. Da dieser Kpfwg. nach wie vor"

See it here
http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac213/vaerlagh/0581.jpg

Fortunately there were multiple copies in archives

Hope it helps

This turret from Beja grave was the turret of 241 or 243.



This clearly showing a "4" as the second digit. Tiger 142 was identified a hundred meter further down the road and Tiger 141 was in repair somewhere and did not take part at the Beja action.

So this should be the turret of Tiger 241 or 243. Further more it looks like in front of the original "4", was painted a "8". The third original digit was also washed away it seems, but i have no idea what the complete new number could be.

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Hartmut von Holdt

Like the one from my last post, here are more of the photos Rob Fraser send us to work on it. This serie is also kindly given to Rob by James Blackwell.

Here this one is very interesting i think, because i believe it is a unknown(at least here) Tiger wreck of 501. The turret of that Tiger was blowing apart and the half still resting on the hull. The Tiger burns down to the wheels and partly burnt the rubbers.












Do anyone have an idea to the location and time frame of this photos. Or the idententy of this Tiger of course?

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Hartmut von Holdt

Turret

Very nice photographs. Is the turret the same as this one?




http://i31.tinypic.com/j93ux5.jpg

Dieser Beitrag wurde schon 2 mal editiert, zum letzten mal von John Winwood am 11.08.2010 01:24.

I would say not the same cause the internal damages are different.

I think this is a Tiger from the Beja grave. In the back it seems the known turret shell apears.

So this Tiger here should one of the later completely destroid ones and it is the Tiger turret that you pointed out on your site.







Maybe the film can show a lil more? Do someone still have the link to that film?

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Hartmut von Holdt

Turret

The video was deleted on YouTube, but a very blurry copy is here:
http://www.mayomo.com/33124-tiger-tank-recognition-1943

I was wondering if these two might be the same turret.

great new photos

John I think you are right about the tank you posted and the blown out mantlet one being the same tank.
It is just the weird angle that the photo of the soldiers looking in the turret from the hull.
We can't get a good match from the other two new photos. I believe it is too much of a coincidence of the angle and mantlet being blown out, not to be the same tank.

Hartmut I also believe your deduction of the turret shell being 241 OR 243. We already know that the hull of 241 became the target hull, and its turret was used as a spare I guess. More than likely we will probably find this too be 243.

Hi Hartmut,

I wonder whether the object arrowed in the background is an oil barrel quite near the turret rather than the suggested far off turret wall.



There is a noticeable shadow as from a lip around the top of a barrel, which the turret would not have,

Cheers,

Chris.

RE: great new photos

Zitat:

Original von Allen Dail John I think you are right about the tank you posted and the blown out mantlet one being the same tank. It is just the weird angle that the photo of the soldiers looking in the turret from the hull. We can't get a good match from the other two new photos. I believe it is too much of a coincidence of the angle and mantlet being blown out, not to be the same tank.

If the turret be the same, then it should share the same damages inside from the explosion. Right over the pistol port is a damaged metal band on the "new" turret, but on the other not. The turret on the "new" photo is resting close to its original postition but the other resting on the engines deck. The turret ring is blowing as an extra part out of the Tiger and thats just like we see him on the known Beja wreck near the Panzer IV.

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

Zitat:

Original von Chris Brown Hi Hartmut, I wonder whether the object arrowed in the background is an oil barrel quite near the turret rather than the suggested far off turret wall. There is a noticeable shadow as from a lip around the top of a barrel, which the turret would not have, Cheers, Chris.

The objekt is in the right distance to the road and the position corespondences with the road in the right angel. It should be an big accident then.






The Tigers original place, where it was blown of by the germans, could be on the road in front of the Panzer IV. This Tiger was in the same way like the other Tigers on that location blown again to pieces by brits or americans. I wonder if we found photos of those efforts some day?

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Hartmut von Holdt

Look at this item:



This is a steel crossbeam, very solid and very firmly welded into a notch in the side armour. Consider the extreme force or the welding torch that you would need to remove it in order to obtain the turret in the other photo.

David

I think we're looking at 2 different Tigers gentlemen.

The new photos have an absence of items that are in the known photos which suffered more damage or was demolished after the new photos.

I'm pretty sure the up ended turret shell is the old 243. Sure looks like a 3 to the right of the 4. They hastily covered the 2 with the little 8 and left the 4, maybe they ran out of time before going into battle?

__________________
Regards,

James

Would be interesting from wich hull the turret comes. Actually it should be the turret of the hull near the Panzer IV on the field.





But he is a bit far from this hull.

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Hartmut von Holdt

Zitat:

Original von Hartmut von Holdt This turret from Beja grave was the turret of 241 or 243.

Looks like it used to be a '3'.

David

That's what I was thinking David. Think you've discovered the fate of 243. Looks like they painted over the 2 and the 3, painted a little 8 over the 2 but went into battle before they could finish.

__________________
Regards,

James

The upended 243 turret in all likelyhood belongs to the Tiger which was blown apart with its wheels resting on both sides of the road near the M3 Tank Destroyer. The one on the other side of the PZIV on the roadside has its turret near the hull.

__________________
Regards,

James

Zitat:

Original von James Burns That's what I was thinking David. Think you've discovered the fate of 243. Looks like they painted over the 2 and the 3, painted a little 8 over the 2 but went into battle before they could finish.

If i am not wrong, the renumbering on the 2.Kompanie Tiger was just made by overpainting the "2" with an "8".
All known renumbered 2.Kompanie tanks seems to confirm this and so this one should renumbered as 843.

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

Zitat:

Original von James Burns The upended 243 turret in all likelyhood belongs to the Tiger which was blown apart with its wheels resting on both sides of the road near the M3 Tank Destroyer. The one on the other side of the PZIV on the roadside has its turret near the hull.

I don´t know wich one you mean.

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Hartmut von Holdt

The tiger furthest south has its turret near the hull. I was looking at it over at Lone Sentry and it appears the center number is 4 and smaller, like the 504th.

Upon reflection with the 243s turret, while I thought the 3 has been painted over, it's possible it's covered with debris or burned instead. Either way, this is the turret of 243 of the 501st.

So now the only turret we're mssing is the one from the Tiger completely off the road near the PZIV, the one to the west of the Tank Destroyer.

__________________
Regards,

James

Zitat:

Original von Hartmut von Holdt Like the one from my last post, here are more of the photos Rob Fraser send us to work on it. This serie is also kindly given to Rob by James Blackwell. Here this one is very interesting i think, because i believe it is a unknown(at least here) Tiger wreck of 501. The turret of that Tiger was blowing apart and the half still resting on the hull. The Tiger burns down to the wheels and partly burnt the rubbers. Do anyone have an idea to the location and time frame of this photos. Or the idententy of this Tiger of course?

To go out on a limb i think this is Tiger 243.

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

New theory

Hello
I have a new theory for the wreck with British soldiers marching beside on the road screen grab
I think this may be 111 at beja . There is not much too match up but the grilll and slope to the right of the tank.
What do you guys think






Allen

Thank you for the reminder! I forgot to put it in the gallery.

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Hartmut von Holdt

I think you're right Allen.

The 231 suffered a similar fate. It too had a mine go off about halfway down the track. Were our exploders that slow to trigger the charge even with a moving tank?

__________________
Regards,

James